I start by offering my support to all those providing an early years service in this country. I pay tribute to all those staff and providers who go in day in, day out to do their very best for the families they look after. I am conscious that there are huge frustrations in the sector about core funding, wages and bureaucracy. Many service providers tell me they are running unviable services. Despite all these issues, they go in and provide a brilliant and much-needed service across every community in this country. I raise the issue here of services that are experiencing difficulties and specifically the powers of intervention and the resources to be made available by the Department of children to those services. We know that €331 million is being spent by the State in this year alone in core funding across almost 4,200 early years services. There is an unprecedented €1.37 billion in total funding to the sector this year. Despite this badly needed money, I have come to believe that the Department of children has far too little oversight over the governance structures of the early years services it funds. By extension, it is a shocking indictment of the Department that no powers of intervention exist when a service finds itself in difficulty. I am currently witnessing a situation in Dublin 7, where a preschool service has announced the closure of an ECCE session with just eight days notice to parents and staff. There is a whole series of issues with regard to the notice. It should have been 30 days but because there is a whole range of sensitivities around the issue - I am not going to name the service - thankfully a two-week extension has been granted. The crucial point here is that if a closure of an ECCE service or session is announced, Pobal and the Department are effectively left powerless to act. They can offer supports and there is a sustainability fund in place, but at the end of the day if the management of a service decides to close, the State can do nothing to intervene. To me, that is not good enough. If a primary school or a secondary school gets into difficulty, there are very clear powers conveyed by the State to intervene. The State recognises the crucial importance of continued provision of primary and secondary education, but for early years services there is nothing. The First 5 strategy document for babies and young children is a wonderful Government strategy that is full of ambition. Objective 8 is dedicated to children having access to safe, high-quality developmentally appropriate integrated early learning and care, but where is the real commitment by the Department to these children if it is prepared to allow children go without a vital ECCE service for weeks or months at what is a vital time in their lives? The implication here is that if a service closes for whatever reason, there is no immediate replacement. We know from talking to Pobal that at a bare minimum, even if a new service comes into an existing premises, we are looking at about six months before that service can reopen. That is unacceptable. Of course Tusla has to be engaged in a very detailed registration process. There are of course high standards for every early years service. The reality then is that a community can be left without a service. The context here is that Stoneybatter suffered a loss of 105 preschool places in just a 12-month period. We have not seen the replacement of those places in the area. Indeed, those losses happened because of the actions of the former Department of the current Minister for children. A diktat from the Department of Education meant the licences of early years services within primary schools had to be terminated. In one instance, a room was left empty for eight months. I look forward to the response from the Minister of State, but I hope there will be some progress in terms of an intervention.

I thank Deputy Sherlock for raising this important matter and for offering us the opportunity to respond. I am taking this Topical Issue matter on behalf of the Minister for children, Deputy Foley. With regard to resources through core funding, core funding is a grant to providers designed to support quality, sustainability and enhanced public management, with associated conditions in relation to fee control and cost transparency, incorporating funding for administration and to support the employment of graduate staff. The introduction of core funding in 2022 brought a significant increase in investment for this sector. This increased year on year and core funding now stands at €331 million in the current programme year. In addition to the core funding grant for early learning and childcare providers towards operating costs, which the services avail of, case management supports are also available from the Department for any services experiencing financial difficulty or that have concerns about their viability. This support can take the form of assisting services with interpreting analysis of staff ratios and cash flow, financial support for services, as well as more specialised advice and support appropriate to individual circumstances. These supports can be accessed by any core funding partner service by contacting their local city or county childcare committee. I have been informed by the Minister and her Department that the service in question is engaging with the Dublin City Childcare Committee and Pobal in relation to these supports. The Dublin City Childcare Committee and Pobal are assisting the service with considering all options that maintain its current capacity and hours, which may include temporary sustainability funding if appropriate. The decision by a service to close is ultimately a private business matter with which the Department cannot interfere. A meeting will take place between the board members and the parents-guardians this evening to discuss the potential closure of the afternoon session. The children attending the afternoon session have been offered a place in the service’s sister service, which is within 1 km of the service. Four of the eight children attending this session have accepted the offer of a place in the sister service. Additionally, other alternative arrangements are also being explored.

I thank the Minister of State for that reply. I had not intended going into the details of the particular situation I raised with the Department last week, but just to be clear, the management is meeting with parents tonight. The meeting is not with staff. In fact, that takes a whole other week. It is perhaps a reflection of the disrespect to staff in this particular matter. The other crucial point is that the Department has been misinformed. The reality is that there are people who can only accept an afternoon service and what they are being offered is a morning service. It is important to put that on the record. Returning to the wider point about the powers of intervention, for many of the brilliant services out there the discussion we are having this evening is largely irrelevant. They are brilliantly run and if there is a difficulty they engage with all the supports provided by Pobal and the Department. However, a few do not and the current set-up is a stark reminder that we have a lot of public money going into a privately-run sector. Indeed, the Minister of State said that the decision by a service to close is ultimately a private business matter with which the Department cannot interfere. The question must be asked as to whether that is good enough. We are calling on the Minister to instigate change here because with the right to State funding there must be a responsibility on the provider and on the State. No child should suffer a gap in early years education. That is what is going to happen here if that afternoon session closes, not for every child but for some children. It is not good enough or acceptable that the State and the Department of children would stand by and let this happen. There needs to be a much greater look at the governance of how early years services are run but also at the responsibilities of the Department in terms of being able to ensure the continued provision of early years education across every community in this country.

I agree with the sentiment of the matter the Deputy raised tonight. Certainly, the Department is committed to working with all core funding partner services concerned about their viability and to ensure we have oversight around case management processes. In this instance, it is between the provider, the local city and county childcare committee, and Pobal working together to assess and provide support to the early years and care services because we know how vital they are and we must ensure they are put on a more sustainable financial footing. If any services have concerns, they need to reach out to their local city and county childcare committee and the Department in respect of being informed of the types of support that may be available. The Department probably needs to do a better job in reassuring private providers because we are very much reliant on them right across the State. In my constituency, I know they are extremely important and really provide an important service. I refer to not just the providers but their staff as well. The core funding element did look at how we can strengthen staffing pay and recognition. We need to continue to do that. I will raise the issue the Deputy has raised with the Minister, Deputy Foley, and ensure we continue to invest in the sector and that the proper governance structures are in place.

I am raising this issue because of a report published in the last week, namely, the National Paediatric Mortality Register Annual Report 2025. It sets out the concerns about the lack of a centralised, universalised reporting system for reporting and analysing child deaths. This is hindering progress in addressing the root causes. What steps is the Minister of State taking to address this issue? The report covers the audit from 1 January 2019 to 31 December 2023. It shows that deaths of children are higher in some areas, aspects and age groups in Ireland compared to other European countries. For instance, there has been no significant decline in mortality in the age groups of those aged from ten to 14 and 15 to 18. In fact, rates in Ireland from 2007 to 2023 in the age groups one to four and five to nine show there has been no decrease. In the age group of those aged ten to 14 there has been no decrease. In the age group of those aged 15 to 18, however, there has been an increase. This is the concern that the report shows. It is interesting to see the figures in that the number of deaths recorded for those aged under one year of age was 363. For those aged one to 14, the figure was 145, while for those aged 15 to 18, it was 104. The major aspect of this report shows that there is no centralised system of any description for reporting. There also seems to be quite a delay in the reporting of the deaths. As a result, the analysis is not occurring. The report clearly indicated a need for a proper data collection system, for an analysis of infection-related deaths, that is, in children, and for a review of data relating to circumstances of potential suicide. This is especially the case in the age group from 15 to 18. In the case of sudden infant death syndrome, SIDS, there is a need for accurate and timely information regarding the circumstances of those deaths. There is another interesting issue. My understanding is that when a post mortem is requested in the case of the death of a child receiving treatment in a hospital, the post mortem report goes to the coroner, but there is no direct feedback to the doctors who were treating the child, and if feedback is given, it happens at a considerably later stage. It can take anything up to two years for an inquest to be held, and therefore the post mortem report is not made available. The doctors concerned in treating that child may have moved on to another hospital or indeed to another jurisdiction. That is something that must also be reviewed. The report is a comprehensive one of more than 150 pages. It deals with all of the aspects relating to infant deaths and child deaths. The Department now needs to take on board the recommendations in the report and the need for a centralised system. I ask that this request would be taken on board at the earliest possible date.

The Minister for Health extends her deepest sympathies to all parents and families who have experienced the tragic death of a child. The most recent data on child deaths comes from the second report of the national paediatric mortality register conducted by the HSE's National Office of Clinical Audit, NOCA, which is built on early data collection work. While the report makes for very difficult reading, it provides important information which can be used to improve our services and to prevent potential avoidable deaths in children and young people. The report notes that sudden infant death syndrome, SIDS, was the leading cause of the post neonatal deaths registered during 2022 and 2023, accounting for 37% of deaths. The rate of SIDS increased from 0.24 in 2019 to 2021 to 0.35 in 2022 to 2023. The report advises that the reason for this increase is unclear but that the writers of the report will closely monitor 2024 data to identify potential trends. At 3.2 per 1,000 live births, the provisional infant mortality rate in Ireland for the period 2022 to 2023 is slightly higher than in 2019 to 2021, when it was 3.1, and is now the same as the EU average. The Minister acknowledges the finding that mortality in children aged from one to four and age five to nine has continued to decrease but is committed to reducing the rate in all age categories. In particular, the Minister welcomes the recommendation that the deaths from infection and sepsis will be a focus and a special feature of the next report. Continued data collection provides important additional information and evidence that will help to reduce further avoidable deaths. The Ombudsman for Children's Office, OCO, started an engagement process in 2024 to consult the key stakeholders to explore the need for a statutory national child death review mechanism in Ireland. The aim of the consultation process by the OCO is to increase the awareness and understanding of the current practice across statutory services when a child dies of non-natural causes. The OCO engaged directly with the Department on this matter and identified other key stakeholders such as the HSE, Tusla, the National Office of Clinical Audit, the Department of Education, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, HIQA, and the Coroner Service. The Department of Health is committed to reducing the rate of avoidable deaths in children across all age groups and has made considerable investment in this area in recent years. Since the national maternity strategy was launched in 2016, more than €80 million has been invested in new development funding across maternity and gynaecological services. This investment has also brought more than 530 additional full-time staff into maternity services across all staff categories. In 2023, funding was allocated to support the ongoing strategy development of the national paediatric service. This facilitated the recruitment of an additional 56.7 whole-time-equivalent, WTE, clinical posts. This also included 26.5 WTEs for gynaecological services in CHI to enhance the service in preparation for the establishment of the neonatal intensive care unit, NICU, in the new children's hospital. These posts include consultants, nurses, practitioners, staff nurses and other clinical staff. The Department of Health continues to engage with the Ombudsman for Children, the HSE, the NOCA and other stakeholders this matter.

I thank the Minister of State for her reply. The recommendations are quite clear. Recommendation 1 is "The National Office of Clinical Audit (NOCA) must urgently progress the implementation of an electronic data collection system in order to allow for the timely submission of CYP mortality data to the NPMR". It is a clear recommendation. Recommendation 2 is that there would be a "detailed analysis of infection-related deaths". Recommendation 3 is that "NOCA should contribute to the evidence base required to inform policy around suicide prevention by reviewing data relating to the circumstances of potential suicide deaths". Recommendation 4 is that, "Detailed, accurate, and timely information regarding the circumstances of SIDS deaths is required to make further improvements in the prevention of these deaths." There are four clear recommendations. When is the Department going to implement those recommendations in full? Are we talking about 12 months, two years or three years? There are clear recommendations that were set out by a very expert group. It is a matter for the HSE and the Department of Health to get together and implement the terms of these recommendations.

I thank the Deputy. I offer my deepest sympathies and those of the Minister for Health to all parents and families who have experienced the tragic death of a child. Information on child deaths comes primarily from the national paediatric mortality register conducted by the HSE's National Office of Clinical Audit. The reporting provides vital information, which is used to improve our services and to prevent avoidable deaths. The Department of Health is committed to reducing deaths in children across all age groups and has made considerable investment in this area. Specifically, the Department continues to engage with the Ombudsman for Children, the HSE, NOCA and other stakeholders to explore the need for a statutory child death review mechanism in Ireland. The aim of this consultation process by the OCO is to increase the awareness and understanding of the current practices in statutory services when a child dies from non-natural causes. I thank Deputy Burke for bringing up this matter. He spoke about the recommendations, in particular the four he outlined. He is looking for a timeframe. I will come back to him with what is going to happen. I will definitely look into this and come back to the Deputy with a timescale as soon as I can.

I thank the Minister of State.

I raise a very serious issue, one I would call a crisis, in regard to special educational needs for primary school children in Waterford city and county. Somewhere between 40 and 50 children are still unsure whether they will have a place come September. I have engaged on this, as has Deputy McGuinness, with dozens of parents of children with disabilities who cannot access a place for their child. Some of them have contacted between 15 and 17 schools and got refusal after refusal. It is heartbreaking for the parents. I have written to and met as many primary school principals as I possibly could in recent weeks. Surprisingly for me, many of them told me they want to provide and can provide classes but that there is either no space, they do not have the modular units or they do not have the staff to provide the classes. In some instances, in particular in County Waterford, but also, arguably, in Waterford city, there may be a need for a new special school. While that is something that is needed for the medium to long term, it is unacceptable we have such a volume of young children who deserve to enjoy the same education rights as anybody else, whose parents are doing everything possible - trying to move heaven and earth - to get their children the education they need, but it seems the Department and the Government cannot deliver. I met with the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, and the local special educational needs organiser, SENO. They tell me they have engaged with schools as well but that funding is required to provide the space, the modular units or the teachers that are needed to provide the extra classes. What is the Government going to do about it? Why is it such a problem in Waterford? What initiatives will the Minister of State take to deal with what is a very real crisis for those children and their families?

The shortage of special education spaces across Waterford city and county did not happen overnight but it has now reached crisis level. As I have outlined in correspondence to the Minister and the Minister of State, and by way of parliamentary questions when that resulted in no response, there is an alarming situation in Dungarvan where 20 children have been told there will be no space for them in St. John's Special School this September. Given the limited spaces and high demand, the school was forced to pick names at random through a lottery and to create a waiting list. No school, principal or team should be put in that position. The families of these children have been left reeling and uncertain as to how, where and if their children's right to education will be vindicated. St. John's Special School, Dungarvan, is a fantastic school and is utterly embedded in the community. It caters to children with mild, moderate and severe levels of need. Its catchment area does not just include Waterford but also parts of east Cork and south Tipperary. This is on top of the more general constraints on special class spaces to which Deputy Cullinane referenced within mainstream schools across Waterford. While a special class in a mainstream school will suit some children and others will thrive in a mainstream class with the right support, some children need a special school setting. The 20 children impacted in west Waterford need a special school space. Deputy Cullinane and I have been engaging with parents, the NCSE, SENOs and school principals to push for a resolution to the crisis across Waterford city and county. Projects in Ballycurrane National School and Garranbane National School have been delayed, further adding to pressure, while bureaucracy and capacity constraints are frustrating efforts in more schools across Waterford, both at primary and secondary level. There is an urgent need for additional capacity in St. John's Special School, Dungarvan. While temporary accommodation might be a solution for September, ultimately there needs to be an expansive and ambitious project to deliver a new extended school campus in Dungarvan. For now, however, parents need certainty. Their children deserve an education, not just a place to be but a place where in the words of one parent, they can thrive and achieve their full potential, whatever that might look like.

I thank Deputies Cullinane and McGuinness for raising the issue. At the outset, I stress that enabling students with special educational needs to receive an appropriate education is an absolute priority for me and the Government. It is the Government's priority to ensure that all children have an appropriate school placement and that the necessary supports are provided to our schools to allow children with special educational needs to flourish and prosper. Importantly, for myself as the Minister of State responsible, I want to try to ensure that the lead-in times for planning and making spaces available is as efficient as possible in order that stress on parents can be reduced as much as possible. Parents need to have certainty about where their children will be going to school. That is crucially important. The spend on special education is at an all-time high, with more than a quarter of the education budget allocated to special education. Since 2020, almost 1,700 new special classes have been provided, bringing the total to more than 3,330. Of the 400 new special classes sanctioned for the 2024-25 school year, 12 are in County Waterford, seven at primary level and five at post-primary level. This brings the total number of special classes in Waterford to 70, 44 at primary level and 26 at post-primary level. In addition, there are three special schools in the county. All three have expanded provision in the last number of years to accommodate more children, with St. John’s Special School and St. Martin's Special School availing of building projects in recent years. St. Martin’s currently has a project for an additional four special education classrooms, a quiet space and ancillary accommodations. At a local level in County Waterford and indeed nationwide, the NCSE is examining which special schools have capacity to expand and is targeting medium and larger primary schools with no special class, or just one special class, to open a new special class. As schools begin to enrol students and as places become available, the NCSE will advise and support parents to ensure all children have a suitable placement for September. It is important for planning purposes that parents engage with the NCSE when seeking a special educational placement for their children. The Deputies will know the contact details of local SENOs and I also know that parents have reached out to the public representatives in the area as well. The need for additional special school capacity across County Waterford and the adjoining regions will be kept under review by the NCSE and the Department of Education. Specifically, in relation to St John’s Special School, Dungarvan, the NCSE is engaging directly with the school regarding the needs of the children in the local area. I assure the Deputies that both I and the Department have sought and are awaiting an update on this in terms of any potential need for additional accommodation. I am assured that the NCSE also hopes to be able to confirm additional special classes in the area over the coming weeks. In relation to new special class provision at primary level across the county more broadly, the NCSE is engaging with schools and school patron bodies to confirm new special classes to open for the coming school year. There should be progress on confirming these new special classes shortly.

I have to take issue with some of what the Minister of State has said in his response because it is insulting to the parents of those children. He stated, "As schools begin to enrol students and as places become available, the NCSE will advise and support parents to ensure all children have a suitable placement for September." That is not happening and there will not be places for all children because they do not exist. That is the problem. They do not exist. The NCSE accepts that. The SENOs who work in the area accept that. The schools will tell the Minister of State themselves that this is the reality. The Minister of State then said that it is important for planning purposes that parents engage with the NCSE. They are engaging with the NCSE. They have been given lists. The lists are updated all of the time. They contact the schools that are on the lists. I gave the Minister of State examples of parents contacting 16 or 17 different schools. They go through the list contacting every school, suffering heartbreak after heartbreak and being told, "I am sorry but there are no places." The Minister of State needs to wake up and smell the coffee in this regard. There is a real crisis of capacity. Unless the capacity is put in you cannot say to all children that their places will be there for them in September.

The Minister of State has stated the need for additional school spaces and capacity in County Waterford will be kept under review but September is coming quickly for these families. There is no certainty and they have no information. The Minister of State has stated they should contact the SENOs and the NCSE. They are blue in the face from doing that. They have them on speed dial. There could not possibly be more engagement but what they need are answers and certainty. I implore the Minister of State on behalf of these families for the Department of Education and the Minister of State to take every resource they have available to ensure there are spaces for these children because, as Deputy Cullinane said, there will be children left without a space. The only option for those children if a space is not created for them is to sit at the kitchen table at home or to go without an education. It is not fair in 2025 in a modern country like ours for a child to forgo their right to an education, not just an education where they sit and wait but an education where they can thrive and fulfil their potential as human beings.

I thank the Deputies. I agree wholeheartedly with what the Deputies have said. I fully understand the challenges that are being faced in Waterford and across the country in relation to school places. It is an issue that behoves all of us. In my role and the responsibility that I have, I intend to use everything at my disposal to ensure places are made available. I know and I understand fully, as a public representative and indeed with the lived experience, the challenges that are being faced across the country, and particularly the challenges the Deputies have raised in Waterford. In one of the remarks I made in my contributions, I said that we are waiting and that the Department and the NCSE are working. I am assured that the NCSE is hoping to be able to confirm additional special classes in the area in the coming weeks. I will work as hard as I can with the resources that are available through the NCSE and through the Department. We will try together. This is an issue that concerns all public representatives. We have met parents and we know the challenges that are being faced, with many cases of complex needs. We will, however, work as hard as we can to try to find solutions for the parents of children in Waterford and throughout the country.

The Minister is new in the job at the Department and I ask him to intervene on behalf of lecturers in the British and Irish Modern Music, BIMM, institute. Four of those lecturers are here in the Public Gallery. They were all on the picket lines earlier. I was with them today on Thomas Street. They have been forced to take strike action and mount protests because of absolutely shameful treatment by BIMM. This is a private company but 500, or 80%, of its students are effectively students of the Technological University of Dublin, TUD. This institution is funded to provide this course in commercial modern music. The students apply through the CAO to TUD. Their degrees are ratified - I am sure that is not the right word - by TUD. The degrees are awarded by TUD. TUD has outsourced this degree course to BIMM but these 53 workers have been treated shamefully. Many of them have been working there for a decade or more and they have been told to reapply for their own jobs. There are still as many students and the work is still there but BIMM has decided to tell the workers to reapply for their own jobs and has proposed that most of them would become freelance, when they were previously employed and on conditions that are about 50% of what they were previously employed under. Some of them would be given a "yellow pack" grade of lectureship at about 50% of what they were paid before. This is a disgraceful way to treat these people who are delivering an important course in music. We are asking for an intervention with TUD to end the shameful treatment of these workers.

I welcome the workers here tonight. It is not easy to come here after being on a picket line for two days in the cold. BIMM is exploiting the talent and creativity of these musicians and lecturers. The BIMM website boasts about unrivalled industry connections, experienced tutors and how the institute opens doors into the music industry. The restructuring that is happening is classic race to the bottom, Uber-isation of skilled workers, to drive their wages and conditions down and make more money for the college. It is to replace the existing lecturers with lesser pay and conditions. As it is, the BIMM staff are paid less than other lecturers. This falls very much within the Minister's brief. When we look at how this college is set up, we see that students who want to study music apply through the CAO, as was said. They apply to TUD and they get a publicly funded SUSI grant if they qualify but they are in a private college. This is because TUD took the decision in 2010 to outsource this course to BIMM. The Minister has the power to look into taking over this college tomorrow if he likes, running it in the same way as all the other colleges in the country are run, with equal pay and conditions for the workers, unless, that is, the Minister supports the outsourcing, underfunding and driving down of pay and conditions in colleges. There is also a need for solidarity from other workers. For example, the workers told me yesterday that while they were on the picket line the classes were being provided online by people who have chosen to scab on them. That is a lesson for teachers and others. It is critical that the Minister intervenes here to tell TUD and BIMM to stop and drop this disgraceful plan to drive down these workers.

This is my first opportunity to address the House since my appointment to this very important brief. It is an honour to hold it and I look forward to working on the sector with the Deputies opposite and all Deputies of the House. I acknowledge that Deputy Boyd Barrett has an interest in the area of higher education, innovation and research, the pursuit of curiosity and the pursuit of knowledge. We have debated these topics in the past and I look forward to continuing that engagement on this very important topic. I thank the Deputies for raising the issue of the situation at BIMM. I anticipated that it would ventilated before the Dáil. It is welcome that this is happening. I welcome the workers and thank them for being here. I certainly am very sympathetic to their plight. I have been reading about the situation and I have been reading media reports about the proposed restructuring, as it is labelled, and the industrial dispute that has flowed from that. I do not like what I have read and I am concerned about the situation and the impact on staff and students. As the Deputies are aware and as has been acknowledged at the outset, the difficulty is that BIMM is a private company. Neither I, nor any other Minister, have any statutory role or powers to exercise in this matter. I understand and take the point that has been made that TUD is engaged in collaborative provision with BIMM to deliver a small number of programmes. From what I have been told, the arrangement seems to include academic quality assurance and protection of learner arrangements. However, it is BIMM acting as a private provider that appears to have responsibility for staffing, organisational structures and the working terms and conditions of staff. I looked at the BIMM website and it declares that it is a private limited company because it gives the Companies Registration Office, CRO, number and so forth, so it is a private entity. I also note that it has operations across Europe and the UK. Berlin, Hamburg, Birmingham, Manchester and Bristol are all listed as sites where it operates. Furthermore, it does not receive any funding from my Department or from the State, that I am aware of. Issues pertaining to the governance of the terms and conditions of the staff employed do not fall within the remit of my Department. That notwithstanding, like any Member of the House, I am concerned anytime there is the suggestion of redundancies, be it at BIMM or at any other company or organisation in the State. I understand completely that the staff of BIMM are worried by management proposals. Apparently BIMM is saying that its actions are in the best interests of the students and the organisation. I am not in a position to assess those claims. It would probably be unhelpful for me to get into trying to arbitrate or adjudicate on the dispute. My primary concern is for the students and staff, based on what I have read and what has been reported. I have been following the issue. The reality, however, is that there are very few, if any, levers available to me as Minister to intervene in any industrial relations dispute, particularly one that involves a private sector organisation. I strongly urge all parties - with this being directed more at the company than the workers, who have made their availability known - to engage in the industrial relations machinery of the State. The Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, stands ready to engage. I encourage all parties to think seriously about where the path leads them next. That may be a very helpful avenue to pursue a resolution. I am sure the Deputies and the workers will be interested to hear that the president of TUD has agreed to meet with the relevant union, the Irish Federation of University Teachers, IFUT, to discuss the concerns. That is a welcome development and I hope that will perhaps assist in moving the dispute forward.

TUD is publicly funded. Some 80% of the students at BIMM are on courses provided by TUD. It gives €3 million in direct funding to BIMM and the SUSI grants and other moneys the students receive go to BIMM. It is public money. The Minister does have responsibility. He cannot wash his hands of this. Given his responsibility for higher education, the Minister has an interest in ensuring that every single teacher and lecturer working in higher education is treated properly and not subjected to a race to the bottom and to breaches of their employment rights. The idea that people would be forced to reapply for their own jobs and become so-called freelance having been employees for years is simply bogus self-employment. That is orchestrated, pre-meditated bogus self-employment. It should not be allowed in degree courses that are being run by TUD. The Minister cannot wash his hands of this. He has a responsibility, as does TUD, to ensure - by the way, it is in the contract with BIMM - that employment rights are respected. BIMM will not even meet IFUT and it has refused to go to the WRC. The Minister needs to crack the whip and intervene in this on behalf of the workers.

In his reply the Minister said that TUD has engaged with BIMM on a number of courses but quality assurance, blah, blah, blah, is all interlinked. How can there be quality assurance if people's pay and conditions are driven down? This is the Minister's responsibility. TUD could employ the staff at BIMM if the Minister gave that direction and made it happen. He could make that happen. A lot of the Minister's answer seemed to be trying to find ways that would prevent him from getting involved. The Minister needs to be looking for ways that he can get involved. A very strong statement from the Minster for higher education in Ireland in opposition to what BIMM is doing would carry a lot of weight as well. It would certainly offer a lot of strength and solidarity to these workers. Would the Minister even agree to issue that? Another thing the Government could do is make union recognition absolutely mandatory. For many people who are in a union, their employer, such as the one we are discussing, does not really negotiate with them. I appeal to the Minister not to play Pontius Pilate but to look for ways he can help these workers and the students.

I absolutely share the Deputies' frustration. Deputy Coppinger called for me to make a statement but I have made statements, as she will see if she listens back to what I have said and looks at the Official Report. I have shared the Deputies' concerns-----

Publicly.

-----and expressed serious concerns for the position of the staff and students. I am not happy about what is obtaining; let us be clear about that. There are limits, and the Deputies are well acquainted and familiar with the industrial relations machinery and how these disputes work. When a private entity is in a dispute with staff, there are very few levers a Minister can deploy. Deputy Coppinger suggested a couple, such as the State possibly taking over the college, which, with respect, is a bit extreme and perhaps not practical at this time.

It is a TUD course.

The realistic powers that may be available to any Minister to intervene in an industrial relations dispute involving a private company are limited, but that is exactly what the industrial relations machinery of the State is there for. Having said that, I had a look at the BIMM website and went through some documentation that is publicly available, and there is something the college calls a terms and conditions sheet, which is a sort of a contract with students, within which it cites its obligations to students, including the provision of courses, reasonable care and skill and so on. I remind the college of that obligation, which it has stated on a contractual basis, that it has to its students. Perhaps that is something it will reflect on. IFUT has declared its willingness to engage, and I encourage both sides to engage in the industrial relations machinery of the State. That is what it is there for. It can provide a solution to this issue, which I very much hope is brought to a head soon for the benefit of the staff, the students and all involved.

The Minister could crack the whip with TUD as well.